It is an interesting thought. 2 Corinthians speaks about preaching another Jesus and receiving another spirit.

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His/Yours
Ron B

God deals with hand-crafted masterpieces not mass-produced replicas.

Biblebase Second Thoughts Blog

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I suppose it would be good to try to understand how this could be because otherwise it could be happening and we would not know it.

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Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

The Girded Mind

Quote: can being brought back under the ‘ power ‘ of certain sin emulate the sin nature and cause a person to think they are not really free from Sin and rid of the Sin nature?

Hi Robert,

I understand emulate as something that strives or seeks to establish, in this case the sin nature. If I understand you correct than your question is whether it might be possible to fall victim to/or come under the power of a certain sin, making a person think they have a sinful nature, even though they have a new nature. Or, as you put it, can being brought back under the power of certain sin emulate the sin nature and cause a person to think they are not really free from Sin and rid of the Sin nature?

That puts it in the context of deception. Eve was deceived by the serpent into thinking that by sinning she would n’t lose what she had. In contrast, your hypothesis would imply that the actual sin itself can deceive a person into thinking they have lost something, ie: that they don’t have a new nature, or to think they are not really free from sin and rid of the sin nature. In other words not being deceived to sin, but sin itself deceiving you to come to certain conclusions. That makes sin deceitful. Sin is deceitful, but I feel more comfortable with the notion that the bible puts to us that the human heart is deceitful above all things, ( Jer 17:9 ). Perhaps this deserves some more study, but I am a little uneasy with this concept, for how much can a person sin before they would have to concede that it is no longer a deception, but they are really not free from Sin and rid of the Sin nature?

Thanks,
Fred

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This is a good question. It strikes at the root of our understanding of Entire Sanctification. What causes the question to come up is that I hear ministers seem to imply that once a person has been freed from Sin then they should no longer have an inclination to commit that sin and if they commit the sin again they must not have ever been freed. But what about sins that stem from our human nature? If a person tends to eat excessively, for example, and they did this before they were born again and still struggle with eating too much- can we say they were never born again or is it something else?

Hebrews talks about being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. I take that to mean that over time folk commit sin and no longer feel the sting of having committed it. They sin and feel no conviction because the sin itself somehow carries with it the opiat that deadens the heart I that area, it seems.

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Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

The Girded Mind

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I have really been seeking the Lord about this question. One of the things I keep thinking is that the devil is much more at work to cause us to stumble than we may realize. He seems to be able to come along and disquise or cloak himself so that we would think that the 'temptation' is coming from within, but I have noticed in the past that as certain temptations come along I have resisted the devil or even rebuked the devil and told it to leave and the associated 'feelings' or 'desires' (whatever sort they may be) left with him.


Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:7)

It seems that in the past I have only thought of temptation as an intellectual thing; but I am not convinced that the enemy does not come and in some way is able to press upon our souls and bodies various desires or emotions that attend the demonic spirits presence. If this is true then it explains to me why I have so sharply resisted certain aspects of Entire sanctification.

I have always wondered where the 'desire' or the 'feeling' came from in the temptation? In a sort of prevenient way, the enemy seems to be able to mix his temptation up in the form of a lie + the associated desire to fullfill it. Otherwise it would be impossible to beguile a person because it would not be a 'complete' deception. So the temptation that comes from 'without' feels like it is coming from within; where in reality it has an effect within but it does not originate within.

It seems that evil spirits have some capacity to cause us to 'will and do' their evil pleasure in a similar sense to how the Holy Spirit would deal with us. What makes us vulnerable to these things seems to be the fact that we are still in our natural bodies.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Cor. 15:44)

This is no doubt one of those "hard to be understood" passages Peter refers to. But it seems to me that the spiritual resurrection body will not be vulnerable to certain things like the soulish body now is (pulling a few concepts from D. Prince). God has yet to deal with our bodies. But it seems that the problem is that our spirit does not rule our body as it ought and this makes us particularl vulnerable to Satan.

It seems that the order of our being must be:

1. spirit
2. soul
3. body

This seems to be an improvement over lost man

1. body
2. soul
3. spirit (dead towards God)

If I am reading the text right in I Cor. 15:44 then what our spiritual body will be is:

1. spirit
2. body
3. soul

This would mean that the body is the complete slave of the human spirit that is alive to the Holy Spirit. We could worship in spirit and in truth and present our bodies without the interference of the soul element that now competes with the spirit for rights to gratify the person. In other words after the resurrection of the believer man will not have the battle of the soul seeking to dominate the body through various emotional and sensual forces.

I'll get the helmet...

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Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

The Girded Mind

Quote: If a person tends to eat excessively, for example, and they did this before they were born again and still struggle with eating too much- can we say they were never born again or is it something else?

Perhaps some of the confusion about what constitutes new birth comes about because we possibly think it must follow the same processes as natural birth. There is one fundamental difference however, in natural birth we begin with an empty slate as it were, as we gradually mature into the personality we are going to be. At the time of new birth we already have a history of many years behind us in which our behaviour and thinking have become established. It is therefore not surprising that we might find that when we receive the Holy Spirit there can initially be a divorce between what God has began to work in us by the Spirit and our actual behaviour and thinking. The teaching of the bible seems to indicate and many people testify that there is a process of maturing and growing in the new life we receive from God until we grow up into the full stature of Christ, or become filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. That makes sense, for in Romans it talks about mortifying the deeds of the body, which sounds very much like an ongoing process. That might explain why some people still struggle, seemingly after new birth, with things they have struggled with all their lives, for they possibly haven’t learned to obey and walk in the Spirit.

It is clear that becoming a Christian, receiving the Holy Spirit, getting born again, regenerated, or whatever we doctrinally think has happened to us may be the beginning or a stage in taking us unto maturity, sanctification, entire sanctification and at any rate a deeper understanding and relationship with God. 2 Cor 7:1 gives us some in sight, “ Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.” If it is not a process of change than Paul would n’t have urged people in Romans 12:2 to not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Neither would the church need Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to built people up until they become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, ( Ephesians 4:11 ).

People that struggle with eating too much may need the encouragement of a pastor and a teacher to explain to them what the Holy Spirit does in our life and what God expects from us in response to him. One important aspect of salvation is our cooperating with the Holy Spirit to accomplish God’s purpose in our life. That is something we have to learn to do and body ministry is vital in this, Hebrews 3:13 “ But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.” Discipline is also very important as in Hebrews 12:11 “ Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.”

Finally, this is something Oswald Chambers wrote that might shed some light on your question. “ The Spirit of God works independent in me to begin with, just as my natural spirit does, and if I do not obey the Spirit of God the insistence of the flesh, of the ‘ carnal mind ‘ , will gradually defile everything He has been trying to do.” And “ When we are being brought into harmony with the Spirit of God and are learning to form the mind of Christ, the Spirit ‘lusts against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit’; nevertheless we can slowly and surely and victoriously, claim the whole territory for the Spirit of God, until at entire sanctification, the only thing there is, is the Spirit of God, who has enabled us to form the mind of Christ, and now we begin to manifest that growth in grace which will express the life of Jesus in our mortal flesh.”

There is an illustration that I have heard used which I think has some merit. It has some demerit too but I still think it might make a contribution.

If we think of Sin, not sins, as a root then regeneration might me seen as the removal of the root. Personally I don't use the language of 'root' in my theology of sanctification so don't apply this too closely... When the root is removed it may leave behind its impression in the soil. We have an adversary who is able to lay a temptation into that impression so that if the 'sanctified' did not know that the root had been removed he would inevitably conclude that the 'root' had not been removed.

If however he 'knows' that it has been removed he must seek for another explanation of his experience.

Let's change the illustration... some diseases and infections are more easily acquired by some people. My family has an hereditary predisposition to throat infections. It has something, I understand, to do with the narrowness of the throat. Predisposition is not predestination but it does mean that I am particularly susceptible to throat infections; it has to do with the shape of my body.

Souls too have an hereditary aspect and character can often be seen in successive generations. I do not see this an inevitable, not predestined, but a definite predisposition. Even when I am genuinely born again by individual soul is going to have its unique 'shape' and that shape will cause me to be more disposed to some temptations than to others. I should feel no pride that I am not tempted as another is tempted; it is very likely that he is not tempted as I am tempted.

In my understanding it comes down to 'knowing'. Have I engaged with God? Have I received from God? Does His Spirit bear witness with my spirit? It is vital that I 'know'. I have an enemy who can create a personally tailored temptation that is so designed that if I don't 'know' I will most certainly be deceived.

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His/Yours
Ron B

God deals with hand-crafted masterpieces not mass-produced replicas.

Biblebase Second Thoughts Blog