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| Ron B | Posted on: 2009/5/22 14:41 |
Needs to get out a bit more!   Joined: 2005/1/20 From: Reading, UK Posts: 2819 |
Re: Circumcision Quote:
What has got me thinking about this things like the Lord's supper and baptism which are outward things. They seem to be visible testimonies to things; are there any other visible testimonies to things? I know this will put me in the oddity class but the first 'ordinance' that Paul talks about having commended the Corinthians for keeping the ordinances is 'head covering'.
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| Nasher | Posted on: 2010/4/19 15:34 |
Quite a regular   Joined: 2005/2/9 From: Watford, England Posts: 43 |
Re: Circumcision Hi Everyone, I've just finished reading through all the posts
 and have a few questions to ask:Genesis 17 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. Questions: 1. Who is this covenant between and can it be broken? 2. How long was the covenant for? 3a Is the "Seed" many or one (i.e. Christ)? 3b If the "Seed" is many who were they then and who are they now (if they are any different) 4. What does the convenant promise? "all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God"? - What was / is this land? Jeremiah 31 35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Questions: 1. Who is the "seed of Israel"? 2. What is a "nation"? 3a. Is this a promise or covenant or something else? 3b. Are there any conditions? Romans 11 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying Questions: 1a. Who is Paul referring to when he mentions "His people"? 1b. In what way are they "His people"? Is it different from the way we (Christians [Jewish and Gentile]) are "His people"?
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| Ron B | Posted on: 2010/4/19 21:50 |
Needs to get out a bit more! Joined: 2005/1/20 From: Reading, UK Posts: 2819 |
Re: Circumcision Hi Mark
If you have waded through all those posts you deserve some kind of an answer I think! but I would prefer to talk it through so I won't provide all the answers at once... Quote: 1. Who is this covenant between and can it be broken? Did you notice that there was a covenant mentioned 13 years earlier? Is this the same covenant? How is it different? Does it take two to tango? ie two to make a covenant? If so who are the parties in Genesis 15? Why is there no convenant sign in Gen 15 but one is demanded 13 years later in Gen 17? Have a think and let me know how you are getting on. Love to all at the Mission!
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| Nasher | Posted on: 2010/4/20 18:03 |
Quite a regular Joined: 2005/2/9 From: Watford, England Posts: 43 |
Re: Circumcision Hi Ron,
I hope you're feeling better and that the Lord gives you "energy"! A straight answer from you Ron? I would never expect such a thing  However I will try and answer yours: Did you notice that there was a covenant mentioned 13 years earlier? Yes, but no Is this the same covenant? No How is it different? The first covenant is just between God and Abram; the second is between God and Abraham and his "seed" after him. The first covenants recipients are his "seed" and they were to receive "this land, from the river of Egypt...."; the second covenants recipients are Abram and his "seed" and they were to receive all the land of Canaan and also that God will be their God. Does it take two to tango? ie two to make a covenant? Yes If so who are the parties in Genesis 15? As before the covenant is between God and Abram but it seems that God "signed" the covenant with himself. Why is there no convenant sign in Gen 15 but one is demanded 13 years later in Gen 17? Will hold fire on this one as I'm on my Blackberry at the moment but how am I doing so far? I can't see any "conditions" to these covenants though with regards to anything that could be broken unlike the Sinaitic covenant.
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| Nasher | Posted on: 2010/4/21 13:40 |
Quite a regular Joined: 2005/2/9 From: Watford, England Posts: 43 |
Re: Circumcision Quote:
Why is there no convenant sign in Gen 15 but one is demanded 13 years later in Gen 17? The only thing I can think of is that in the second covenant God is making his "seed" a particular group of people so that He will be their God and this required a "sign", although it's not really a very visible sign is it?
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| Ron B | Posted on: 2010/7/15 12:39 |
Needs to get out a bit more! Joined: 2005/1/20 From: Reading, UK Posts: 2819 |
following the trail This is a post from Mike H
Quote: Can you provide a clear trail where the the Lord clearly expands the committment to all, or replaces the nation with a people? Even the famous verses we hold dear about the New Covenant, seem to be addressed to 'Israel after the flesh'. It arose from another thread in which I mentioned that the way Paul refers to 'Israel according to the flesh' makes it clear that there is 'another Israel'. One that I would call 'Israel according to the Spirit'. kata sarka: according to flesh is a well used phrase of Paul's... Acts 2:30; Rom 1:3; 4:1; 8:1, 4–5, 12–13; 9:3, 5; 1 Cor 1:26; 10:18; 2 Cor 1:17; 5:16; 10:2–3; Gal 4:23, 29; Eph 6:5; Col 3:22 Paul, by the Spirit, felt it necessary here to make it clear just which 'Israel' he was talking about. I will try to 'follow the trail' for you... please do interrupt!
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| Ron B | Posted on: 2010/7/15 13:07 |
Needs to get out a bit more! Joined: 2005/1/20 From: Reading, UK Posts: 2819 |
Re: following the trail Quote:
Even the famous verses we hold dear about the New Covenant, seem to be addressed to 'Israel after the flesh' OK let's start there. "“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jer 31:31–33 NKJV Notice that this is addressed to 'the house of Israel' and 'the house of Judah'. What is the significance. There are approximately 135 years between the fall of 'the house of Israel' and the 'fall of the house of Judah'. ie the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom of the divided monarchy. They had been regarded, at one level, as two separate nations. "and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again." Ezek 37:22 NKJV There are numbers of verses which seem to suggests that 'the house of Israel' is finished forever and many which seem to suggest that God's plans for them are unfinished. How can we understand this apparent contradiction? "The virgin of Israel has fallen; She will rise no more. She lies forsaken on her land; There is no one to raise her up." Amos 5:2 NKJV In the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel we need to be on the watch for various words and phrases which show who the prophecies are aimed at. The Northern Kingdom is called: Israel, the house of Israel, Ephraim, Joseph, the children of Rachel etc The Southern Kingdom is called Judah, the house of Judah, the house of David. So Jeremiah addresses both nations/kingdoms although one of them ceased to exist over 130 years earlier. But notice then how he switches from 'the house of Judah' and 'the house of Israel' to a single phrase 'the house of Israel' in v33. It seems that the covenant is to be established between 'the house of Israel' and God, but the 'house of Israel' has fallen to rise no more, so how are we to understand this? The passage I quoted earlier will give us some direction... "and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again." Ezek 37:22 NKJV Earlier in Ezekiel we have.. "therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd." Ezek 34:22–23 NKJV This is clearly the same promise but with the king named but David has been dead for over 400 years at this point. Let me pause for comments before I move on to God's statement that he would remove 'mercy' and they would no longer be his people.
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| MikeH | Posted on: 2010/7/15 15:05 |
Needs to get out a bit more!  Joined: 2005/8/31 From: Dresden, Germany Posts: 720 |
Re: following the trail Ron wrote: Quote:
kata sarka: according to flesh is a well used phrase of Paul's... With your permission, I would like to continue to stress test your analysis. I have for many years been nervous about the excessive focus that the Christian church has on the nation state of Israel, but this is such an important topic, it desires a thorough and rigorous analysis. However, I will occasionally let my guard down and provide some supporting evidence  Ron wrote: Quote: The Northern Kingdom is called ... The Southern Kingdom is called Ron wrote: Quote: But notice then how he switches from 'the house of Judah' and 'the house of Israel' to a single phrase 'the house of Israel' in v33. It seems that the covenant is to be established between 'the house of Israel' and God Ron quoted: Quote: nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. It is interesting to analyse John 10 in this context. In verse 3 we read Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth (the door to the (sheep)fold (v1)); and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. Is this the shepherd leading His sheep out of the old covenant into the new? (Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. would seem to support the idea.) I have been puzzled by this verse as it is inconsistent: Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. I have always assumed it was the door quoted in verse 3, but if it is the door to the new fold/covenant then it suddenly makes sense The Shepherd has lead His (and only His) sheep out of the old covenant, and He is the door (I am the way, baptised into His death, etc etc) into the new covenant, where His is also the Shepherd/King/PriestAnd then the gentiles coming in:Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Is this a new fold, and equivalent to the new covenant; is covenant and fold ever equated? Certainly this verse supports the idea of gentile sheep hearing His voice: Act 18:10b ... for I have much people in this city. It's just can we go back and clearly demonstrate that the promises were to all mankind, not just the children of Israel. I remember studying Hebrews some time ago, and the writer time and again makes clear the old is finished; this to me supports your hypothesis. Kind regards Mike
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| Ron B | Posted on: 2010/7/15 21:41 |
Needs to get out a bit more! Joined: 2005/1/20 From: Reading, UK Posts: 2819 |
Re: following the trail Quote:
Quote: Certainly and there are classical events like the rebuilding by Elijah of the altar with its 12 stones. Quote: Quote: Yes, and the reconstituted nation will be called Israel (not Judah). However we need to put this in its chronological context too. Isaiah had early prophesied of the captivity and the return but had made it clear that those who returned would be a remnant, in fact, two remnants... "For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness." Is 10:22 NKJV "And the remnant who have escaped of the house of Judah Shall again take root downward, And bear fruit upward." Is 37:31 NKJV It is the remnants of the house of Israel and the remnants of the house of Judah in Jer 31:31 that will make the 'house of Israel' in Jer 31:33 (but there is a secret not yet revealed in the OT Scriptures that Paul reveals... this 'house of Israel' under its New Covenant will have another remnant... believing Gentiles. Quote: Quote: Certainly, but see the lines just above. The New Covenant is with the house of Israel, but the house of Israel will be a reconstituted Israel with remnants of Judah and Israel... and will have a secret ingredient... believing Gentiles. Quote: It is interesting to analyse John 10 in this context. In verse 3 we read Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth (the door to the (sheep)fold (v1)); and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. Is this the shepherd leading His sheep out of the old covenant into the new? (Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. would seem to support the idea.) The NKJV corrects this mistake in the old KJV "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16 KJV "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." John 10:16 NKJV Jerusalem is going to inhabited as a 'city without walls'. The wall is coming down. "For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation," Eph 2:14 NKJV the word 'partition' is translated 'hedge' in... "“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country." Matt 21:33 NKJV
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| Ron B | Posted on: 2010/7/16 12:01 |
Needs to get out a bit more! Joined: 2005/1/20 From: Reading, UK Posts: 2819 |
Re: following the trail Hosea begins with a context…
"The word of the LORD that came to Hosea the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel." Hos 1:1 NKJV It alerts us to the way we will need to understand the words 'Judah' and 'Israel'. Hosea was prophesying in 'Israel', the Northern Kingdom, some 10 years or so prior to the Fall of Samaria and the 'end of the house of Israel' c722BC. Speaking of the 'house of Israel' we read… "And she conceived again and bore a daughter. Then God said to him: “Call her name Lo-ruhamah, For I will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel, But I will utterly take them away. 7 Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, Will save them by the LORD their God, And will not save them by bow, Nor by sword or battle, By horses or horsemen.”" Hos 1:6–7 NKJV "Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Then God said: “Call his name Lo-ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God. 10 “Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, “You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’" Hos 1:8–10 NKJV This last verse is thrilling if not a little confusing. This is the language of a formal divorce 'you are not my wife'. It is the formal divorce of 'the house of Israel' and yet in the same breath Hosea declares “Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, “You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’" and Jeremiah confirms it… "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also." Jer 3:8 NKJV This speaks of an end and a beginning but we have a problem… and Jeremiah is fully aware of it… "“They say, ‘If a man divorces his wife, And she goes from him And becomes another man’s, May he return to her again?’ Would not that land be greatly polluted? But you have played the harlot with many lovers; Yet return to Me,” says the LORD." Jer 3:1 NKJV How can God go against his own law? "then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance." Deut 24:4 NKJV The status of 'the house of Israel' has God's people was ended, but we then have a new beginning where God's claims her again as her own. How are we to understand this? 'Israel' has be deconstituted and now reconstituted but who are the 'new Israel'? "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy." 1 Pet 2:9–10 NKJV So who is Peter talking about here? He clearly has Hosea in mind...
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