Search
Login
Main Menu
Our Partners
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Ron B |
Posted on: 2010/2/3 0:06 |
Needs to get out a bit more!   Joined: 2005/1/20 From: Reading, UK Posts: 2819 |
Re: Which kingdom? Quote: Mr Norths' view is that the KoG is a subset of the KoH. I think there may be some merit in the reverse, in think of the KoH being a subset of the KoG. I have had the same experience 'differing with GWN'. If the KoG is a subset of the KoH does that mean that everything that is in the KoG is also in the KoH but that there are some things in the KoH that are not in the KoG? If so that would surely mean that eg regeneration might be in both the KoG and in the KoH but it might also mean than regeneration might be in the KoH but might not be in the KoG. I doubt the GWN ever heard of Venn diagrams but that would certainly not square with what I understand his teaching to have been. I think I would rather think in terms of intersecting circles, in which although there was a great deal in common in the intersection, there are also areas that are exclusively KoG and other areas which are exclusively KoH. I know that he spoke of kingdoms within kingdoms but I am not sure that he would have crystallised it into set theory. ---------------- His/Yours Ron B
God deals with hand-crafted masterpieces not mass-produced replicas.
Biblebase Second Thoughts Blog
|
|
|
| MikeH |
Posted on: 2010/2/3 10:07 |
Needs to get out a bit more!   Joined: 2005/8/31 From: Dresden, Germany Posts: 720 |
Re: Which kingdom? Ron wrote Quote: If the KoG is a subset of the KoH does that mean that everything that is in the KoG is also in the KoH but that there are some things in the KoH that are not in the KoG? If so that would surely mean that eg regeneration might be in both the KoG and in the KoH but it might also mean than regeneration might be in the KoH but might not be in the KoG. I doubt the GWN ever heard of Venn diagrams but that would certainly not square with what I understand his teaching to have been. I think Mr North was saying that the KoG is a subset of the KoH. However, I think, from my understanding of the recording, he placed regeneration firmly in the KoG (and that part of the KoH in the KoG), but not the KoH generally. Other things were in the KoH and would also naturally be in the KoG. He included such things as healings, deliverance, blessings etc in this category. Things that many had received both in the Lord's time on earth and now, but that did not mean that those were regenerate and in the KoG. It's a very long time since I listened to 'What makes a man tick' but I think he includes a story of a little girl who had spina bifeda, and the mother asked him to pray for her. In a month she was able to walk out of the hospital, but after a few more weeks they left the church and never came back. I think his argument would be the KoH came near to the family in a wonderful way, but but they never pressed through to the KoG. If you get time to expand on your intersecting circles it would be interesting, especially of what might be in the three different categories. I guess Mr North doesn't have to worry about set theory any more; he just sees 'face to face'. Mike ---------------- It is by believing I know, not by knowing I believe!
|
|
|
| Ron B |
Posted on: 2010/2/3 20:27 |
Needs to get out a bit more!   Joined: 2005/1/20 From: Reading, UK Posts: 2819 |
Re: Which kingdom? I know the story of the spina bifida girl. The family were not part of the church but were brought along for prayer by someone who was a member. The family of the healed child never joined themselves to the church or to the Lord. As regards the intersecting circles.. I am having trouble imagining it. In that I think the KoG may include much of the KoH but to my mind would exclude the 'tares' etc. I want the kind of intersection where the KoG occupies a lot of the space of the KoG but where the KoH occupies much less of the KoG. I am not sure how you can do this with circles. ---------------- His/Yours Ron B
God deals with hand-crafted masterpieces not mass-produced replicas.
Biblebase Second Thoughts Blog
|
|
|
| steve |
Posted on: 2010/2/5 22:26 |
Just can't stay away   Joined: 2005/2/8 From: Leicester Posts: 218 |
Re: Which kingdom? Hi Ron said Quote: I think I would rather think in terms of intersecting circles, in which although there was a great deal in common in the intersection, there are also areas that are exclusively KoG and other areas which are exclusively KoH. Does that imply that one can be in the KoG but not in the KoH? If so how would be so? ----------------
Steve ( Leicester)
|
|
|
| Ron B |
Posted on: 2010/2/6 20:08 |
Needs to get out a bit more!   Joined: 2005/1/20 From: Reading, UK Posts: 2819 |
Re: Which kingdom? The old Christian Brethren with their hyper-dispensationalism used to make a clear distinction between the two. The noted that you didn't care tares in the kingdom of God but you did in the KoH. I struggle a bit with set theory. It came along long after my skirmishes with maths but I have dabbled with it. What I am trying to do is to see a temporary earthly aspect of the kingdom that I think of as the kingdom of heaven but the inner spirit of that kingdom is the kingdom of God. Some who knew the blessings of the KoG never seemed to have enjoyed the blessings of the KoG. I think of the KoH somewhat along the lines of ancient Israel with the priests representing the KoG. Outside in the camp there are 'tares' but within the KoG of the temple God's reign was absolute. ---------------- His/Yours Ron B
God deals with hand-crafted masterpieces not mass-produced replicas.
Biblebase Second Thoughts Blog
|
|
|
| steve |
Posted on: 2010/2/6 22:04 |
Just can't stay away   Joined: 2005/2/8 From: Leicester Posts: 218 |
Re: Which kingdom? Hi Ron said Quote: I struggle a bit with set theory. It came along long after my skirmishes with maths but I have dabbled with it. Free lessons available if required! Quote: but within the KoG of the temple God's reign was absolute. So do I understand from this that the priests in the temple were not in the KoH though they were actually in the land of Israel? I'm now trying to think through the implications of that ! To add something else into the melting pot; some years back at the Summer Conference I heard GWN speak from Col.1:13. And I got the impression that he was implying that the kingdom of the Son is yet another kingdom different from the KoG, though I couldn't be too sure what he was getting at! ----------------
Steve ( Leicester)
|
|
|
| MikeH |
Posted on: 2010/2/6 23:15 |
Needs to get out a bit more!   Joined: 2005/8/31 From: Dresden, Germany Posts: 720 |
Re: Which kingdom? Steve wrote Quote: And I got the impression that he was implying that the kingdom of the Son is yet another kingdom different from the KoG, though I couldn't be too sure what he was getting at! Interesting that you should raise this. I noted as I looked at the Kingdom's in Matthew, that three times there is talk of the Son's kingdom: 13:41, 16:28 and 20:21 (though someone else is speaking in this last reference). The other kingdom specifically refered to is Satan's kingdom. Mike PS Heb 1:8 is perhaps also referring to the Son's Kingdom. ---------------- It is by believing I know, not by knowing I believe!
|
|
|
| MikeH |
Posted on: 2010/2/6 23:37 |
Needs to get out a bit more!   Joined: 2005/8/31 From: Dresden, Germany Posts: 720 |
Re: Which kingdom? It is interesting to read these verses in this sequence: Mat 13:41-43 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.Heb 1:8-9 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.Mike ---------------- It is by believing I know, not by knowing I believe!
|
|
|
| Ron B |
Posted on: 2010/6/24 17:11 |
Needs to get out a bit more!   Joined: 2005/1/20 From: Reading, UK Posts: 2819 |
Re: Which kingdom? I came across this section in GW North's "A Glorious Church". I quote it here without comment.Quote: The Kingdom of Heaven
None of the apostles at that time knew the spiritual nature of the kingdom of heaven. Jesus had chosen them out from all other men to be with Himand from this place of vantage they had witnessed many manifestations ofHis power but they had seen little of the inward glory of His majesty.John, writing later with hindsight, said of Jesus' first miracle at Canaof Galilee, 'He manifested forth His glory and His disciples believed onHim', but what they all thought at the time remains unsaid. Similarly Peterrecords what to him had been the peak of heavenly manifestation 'we were eyewitnesses of His Majesty'. Matthew also, reporting Jesus' mountain-top exposition of the laws of the kingdom, follows it up with His sevenfold parabolic discourse on its rise, nature and development in this world unto the shores of eternity. But at the time they saw and heard these things it is certain they had very little understanding of them. That there was a mysterious spiritual aspect to the kingdom of heaven they could have had no doubt, but they could not define it, even though the Lord Himself had been their teacher.
Right at the beginning of their discipleship He had taught them a wonderful prayer in which, if they had known what to look for, they could have discovered the key to the kingdom. 'Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thyname; thy kingdom come' He said. The very opening words contained the clue,but they found neither key nor clue in any of it. Jesus knew they had missed the point, so during His later discourses He called out, 'Who hath ears to hear let him hear'. But, as Isaiah said, their hearts were gross; privileged as they were to see and hear what had been denied others, they neither saw nor heard anything with their hearts; their understandings were almost entirely devoid of knowledge. At that stage of discipleship they thought that Jesus was only a prophet everybody did. Their greatest teacher,Nicodemus, beholding the miracles Jesus did, thought and said He was ateacher come from God; nobody knew.
Strait is the Gate
Not until later did Jesus even release the fact that John Baptist was more than a prophet, so no-one could be blamed at that stage for not believing that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. He had not deliberately withheld truth from them though, neither had John. His forerunner had laid a straight enough path for feet to walk in; that was part of the ministry to which both John and Jesus had been commissioned and of which Isaiah had prophesied. John's voice cried out to the people in the wilderness, 'Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight', and he baptised those who responded to his word. It was only the baptism of repentance, but he preached and practised the one baptism he knew and thereby made a straight path to the Lord. It was also a straight path for Jesus, for He came by that same way to the people and into His ministry as a king in the kingdom of heaven on earth.
John's was not the even straighter path of the Baptism in the Spirit into eternal life in the kingdom of God; he could not minister that, and in any case Jesus did not need it. Neither could He Himself minister it then; He could not baptise into the kingdom of God until He had first revealed the narrow way and established the straight gate. Jesus did not need John's baptism for any of the reasons other men needed it. He was baptised only in order to fulfil all righteousness before the eyes of men. He validated water baptism because it was the medium in which best to reveal His worldwide ministry to all men: (1) as the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin ofthe world; (2) as the Son of God who baptises with the Holy Ghost. All was anticipatory for Him at Jordan; the coming of the dove symbolized to everybody what then was not, but yet should be, viz. that the gate was open, straight and narrow, into the kingdom of God. Within four years all was made plain. God commenced the new era with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit through Him at Pentecost. All is now narrowed down to this one man,who and what He is, and what He has done.
As the dove descended upon Jesus in Jordan that day, the voice of God the Father said 'This is my beloved Son', and before all present Jesus was anointed for ministry and marked out as the Christ now publicly revealed to be preferred above everyone. But beyond and above all that, it was alsoa pictorial anticipation of the new era which should commence at Pentecost,when, having received the promise of the Spirit from the Father, Christ should shed Him forth for the building of His Church. The straight path for every man's feet is the baptism then being prefigured in water and later accomplished in the Spirit by Jesus; all must find and enter this straight gate into life in the kingdom of God. Jesus said that few find it because the gate which leadeth to destruction is wide and the way is broad; many there be that enter and walk therein, He said. By His experience at Jordan Jesus set forth the truth that Calvary and Pentecost are one the baptism, the gate, the way. He is the Resurrection and the Life;the resurrection is the proof that the gate is open, and the life He livedis the clear way.
Of Keys and Kingdoms
At the beginning of His ministry Jesus spoke little of this though.He did tell Nicodemus he must be born from above; He also spoke about Father's kingdom to His disciples and indicated to them the straight path. As far as they were able they left all and followed Him along that way, though often in spirit and mind they were quite baffled about spiritual things.He knew that things were difficult for them and that some things were impossible,for His Father's kingdom consists only in and of spirits; but His Father had given these men to Him so He led them on. God is the Father of spirits;His word is entirely of a spiritual nature and is wrought exclusively for the eternal kingdom of God. However, because they could not yet live inthat kingdom He did not mean they could not live in the kingdom of heaven.
The two kingdoms are akin, and so alike in some aspects that sometimes they are mistaken for each other, consequently it is mistakenly taught that they are the same. This is a grave error because it leads to much misunderstanding among the children of God. To come to a correct understandingof the two kingdoms it may be best to think of their kinship as that oftwins; identical twins. Even further than that, Siamese twins (that is joined together which at times they are). In fact, so closely are they joined in scripture that at times it is almost impossible to distinguish the difference between them. But so important is it for us to discern the differences between them that we must do so or endanger our spiritual life.
The kingdom of heaven had also a physical and material side, which was at everybody's hand in John's and Jesus' day it still is. As with any earthly kingdom, some of its blessings may be had just by being present when they are being dispensed. Kingdom of heaven blessings are of a higher order than providential blessings but may be likened to them. Providential blessings are those blessings which God has provided for all without distinction,and in their order are quite miraculous; just to be born a human being is any man's entitlement to them. Likewise in grace there are blessings available to all who fulfil the very simple conditions upon which God gives them. To ordinary uncomplicated souls, just to be in the Lord's presence was a benediction, bestowing untold wealth, but wonderful as that was,He had more than that to give people and this He quite frequently did.
The King loves to bestow undeserved favours on people; unthought-of blessings were freely given by Him for no other reason than that He distributed His bounty with princely grace for all. This is that higher kind of providence in the kingdom of heaven; everything there is of grace, and is as free to all as are sunshine and rain in the realm of nature. The Lord wonderfully demonstrated this on the occasions when He fed the multitudes. The people were not asked to exercise faith, they were not asked to do anything at all but sit in an orderly manner on the ground, and this they did. He only did this so that His disciples could pass to and fro among them to distribute His grace to them. This is all He asked of them and then, without request of any kind, and quite apart from desert, He broke the bread and fish and they ate from His hand.
Another provision of like order was the creation of wine for the weddingfeast; on that occasion none of the beneficiaries said 'please' or 'thankyou' even. The Lord did not require it of them, nor did they give it; they did not even need to exercise faith for the miracle. His heart simply flowed toward them in human pity and heavenly power and grace; such is His bountiful goodness toward everyone. On these occasions all that was necessary was either that Jesus should be there when the time was ripe or when the need arose, or that people should be there when He was dispensing His undreamt-of blessings. The provision was sheerly providential; people did not need to be members of His family or subjects in the kingdom of God in order to obtain them. They were given as being part of God's bounty free for all, good or bad, in the kingdom of heaven.
This can happen as well for an individual as for crowds. The man Jesus healed at the pool of Bethesda was the beneficiary of one of the Lord's more individual miracles. He was not asked to believe anything. There is no record that he exercised any faith; the Lord just healed him. It was the same with the man born blind; he was not asked or ordered to believe anything before the Lord commenced His ministrations. He anointed those sightless eyes with clay and told him to go and wash. There the man believed and obeyed and could see it was all providential, given without asking as Jesus passed by. There were times when, according to His eternal wisdom He deemed it best for some people to exercise faith; whether the reason for this lay in the nature of the gift or of the person concerned is not clear. At such times the Lord might say 'believest thou that I am able to do this?', or 'according to your faith be it unto you'. By this method the Lord led hearts on and up from the ground of general blessings which with very little effort all may enjoy, to those greater blessings which can only be procured by the exercise of faith.
Comparatively few receive this latter class of favour; when they do so they usually become the topic of discussion for a while. This kind of blessing which is open to faith alone is designedly of far greater worth and of longer duration than the former type. Wine or bread and fish only satisfy temporarily, for thirst and hunger are recurring natural needs.
Many aspects of the kingdom of heaven are revealed in scripture beside those we have already considered. The Lord referred to one when He said there were some standing there which should not taste of death until they saw the Son of man coming in His kingdom. A foretaste of that was afforded the three on the mount, but it was by no means a complete fulfilment of His promise. The dying thief saw into the fulfilment of that on the cross;'Lord remember me when Thou comest in Thy kingdom' he pleaded. He may not have realized the fullest implications of his request, but he was pleading with the Crucified. He surely never knew the vast treasures that would be unlocked and released by those dear wounds and that cross and the grave,nor did he realize the greater possibilities and blessings waiting to be revealed when the Lord procured the kingdom for men. Though the penitent thief certainly knew nothing of this then, at Calvary the right to have and live and reign in the kingdom was bought outright by the Son of man for us men. The gracious Lord rewarded the word of faith from a thief's cross and gave him a place alongside Himself in paradise that day.
Days of Heaven on Earth
Fifty or so days later the waiting disciples, gathered together for the purpose, heard the joyful sound from heaven which ushered in the kingdom with power. O the mighty rushings as of winds of breath, and the cloven tongues like as of all-consuming fire burning on every head; torrents of praise as of mighty waters rose and gathered and flowed unabating to Godlike rivers running to the ultimate sea. They lived to see and experience it, yet neither they nor anyone since has witnessed the still greater fulfilment of which Christ spoke saying 'the Son of man shall come in the glory ofHis Father with His angels'. That day is still future and it will usher all the Lord's subjects into even greater things, when the heavenly kingdom shall come on earth in all fulness in the new creation. The kingdom of heaven will not then be functioning among men living in hellish conditions under satan's power, it will be universal. Rather than being available,the providential blessings of God the King will belong to everybody asa matter of course in that paradisic state. Truly then it will be heavenon earth, the kingdom of God and heaven.
In its present aspect the kingdom of heaven reached its height during the days of the Son of man on earth. Those days were so full of blessings and wonderful works that Jesus said the time would come when His disciples would long for one of the days of the Son of man. There is no doubt that John Baptist's and Jesus' annunciation that the kingdom of heaven was at hand led the Jews to believe that the kingdom would be restored to Israel as it was in former times. But the Lord was clear enough about it; 'Mykingdom is not of this world', He told Pilate. The kingdom then was and still is spiritual with material and physical manifestation; it was not then, nor is it now, political or terrestrial. The Lord's intention was and still is to break the grip of satanic power over human lives and to free the devil's prisoners from his grip so that He can entirely save them and establish them in conditions of heavenly blessing. Today this is the responsibility of the Church, hence its need of His presence in the midst. Given that with His power and authority the Church is irresistible, He will do His own works in the sane way as before.
The Kingdom of God
The kingdom of God, being the kingdom of the Father and His children,was not at hand in John's day, neither was it immediately at hand during Jesus' lifetime. As He said, His hour was not yet come, and until it didcome new birth was not available to anybody. That is why Jesus did not give Peter the keys to that kingdom; nobody else but the Lord Himself can handle those they are the keys of hell and death and therefore could not be used until He had died; He is the key-man who unlocked the straightgate through death into the kingdom of God which is the exclusive kingdom of Fatherhood and sonship.
In the same way as heaven is God's abode, created by Himself for Himself to live in, and may be thought of as His 'country', so also is the kingdom of God central to the kingdom of heaven. As God and heaven are not to be confused, and except by metonymy, never interchanged, so also in thought and exposition must those two kingdoms be kept distinct. Metonymy is a grammatical device, used occasionally by writers and orators, whereby words of distinct meaning are used to imply something other than, though not entirely different from or unconnected with them, such as crown or throne for king. This is a wholly acceptable idea, thoroughly understood by poets and authors and. not infrequently used in scripture. George Fox once wroteto Oliver Cromwell 'see thou touch not the crown Oliver' meaning 'do not aspire to kingship', and he never did, although he may often have placed his hand on the literal crown. Again we know the phrase, 'the lion and the unicorn were fighting for the crown', and by the crown we mean supremacy,kingship, rule, not a golden diadem: the crown is but a symbol.
As miracles are the expression and result of power, and soul is the expression and result of spirit indwelling a human body, so also is the kingdom of heaven the expression and result of the Kingship of God in His kingdom. The union and likeness may be so close as to be indistinguishable to some men, but the distinction is very real and most important in scripture,and indispensable to proper interpretation of spiritual truth. Since Jesus Himself made the distinction it ought to be accepted without reservation without any need to labour the point unduly. The vast difference between the two kingdoms is made outstandingly clear in His teachings: He said of the kingdom of God that except a man be born from above he can neithersee nor enter it. On the other hand He said the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force. To the thoughtful heart nothingcould be plainer.
The death and resurrection of the Lord is the key to the difference between these two kingdoms. People had no need to undergo death and resurrectionin order to receive His gracious ministrations, but to be in the kingdom of God every person must know and experience the power of the resurrection.When He was on earth, operating as from His Jordan anointing, He brought to men the natural conditions in which He lived; to them this was the kingdom of heaven. Those three days of crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection are the most crucially important days of earth's history. What took place then is not our present concern, but it must be our ever-present preoccupation;it was certainly the Lord's.
Until His revelations at Caesarea Philippi, the Lord had not mentioned the cross, but from that time onwards He began to show the disciples the terminal goal toward which He was heading. Being faithful as well as truthful,having declared His own unswerving life-purpose, He then said, 'if anyman will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me'. There must be no compromise; He never softened the blow if He must go to and through death and resurrection, so must they. His determination to build His Church could only find fulfilment in life through death, whether it be for Himself or His people; it could be done in no other way than by death, nor could it stand in any other state than resurrection; He knew that.
To attempt to save self or soul from the cross, or to keep one's own life in order to gain the world, and also to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ at the same time, is impossible. There was no way Jesus could lay the foundation of His Church, leave alone build it, unless He denied Himself, lost His life for our sakes and gave up all ideas of gaining the world, and there is no way we can be built on that foundation unless we similarly give up all hopes, ambitions and claims in this world. Jesus'word to Pilate is clear and conclusive, 'my kingdom is not of this world'. A Glorious Church: GW North pages 23-34 ---------------- His/Yours Ron B
God deals with hand-crafted masterpieces not mass-produced replicas.
Biblebase Second Thoughts Blog
|
|
|
|
|