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I think that because we as human beings were given physical bodies in the beginning with natural desires, etc., we are different from the angels and so our fall was different and so also was the 'effects' of that fall. I think the common issue was that free moral agents can choose not to obey God. Satan had nothing to blame so as far as I know. The Sin is said to have began in his heart and God saw it there when he 'said in his heart...' those things.

So the angels were created perfect. But truly the glory of God had to have departed from them also. I think it is consistent with the whole of the scriptures that God's glory does not remain where sin has not been dealt with. And because they don't have God 'working in them to will or to do' or how ever that played out- it would make sense that the enemy would just rebel perpetually even in the face of certain judgment. There is no hope for Satan, so it seems, because God will not reconcile with Him in such a way so as to work in him. God bid farewell permanently and he is left to his own imaginations and will.

So certainly the body cannot be blamed as the source of our fall as human beings because the body was still yet 'spiritual' (just my theory here). I'm not sure the first sin had much to do with the body; only as far as the temptation could appeal to the desire for food and was pleasant to the eyes could the body in any way be implicated as contributing to their vulnerability to sinning. It seems surely the temptation was for forbidden knowledge- 'to know' and in knowing to 'be like God'. So the weakness we experience now because of the infirmity of our non-glorified body would not have been experienced prior to the fall.

So in summary I would say that a glorified body would be a spiritual body which would be more favorable to serving God (for whatever reason), but that a glorified body cannot prevent a person from yielding to temptation and falling short of the glory of God. But it seems to me that glorifying God will be easier in a glorified body.

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Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

The Girded Mind

An interesting thing I thought about was how the rich man in hell actually felt bodily sensations- even though he was disembodied. He felt fire and was thirsty- clearly a craving normally associated with the body.

So it would seem that there could be resident in the immaterial part of man the faculty of sensations and cravings. If this is true, then it could give weight to the concept that demons are actually disembodied spirits. I'm not signing on to it, but just thinking out loud here.

If a spirit can only express itself through a body then it would seem to me that that unclean 'spirit' would want to possess a body of some kind. When it is not in a body, it walks through 'dry' places. Were back to the idea of 'thirst' again that the rich man experienced. The unclean spirit seemed to have been thrust out into a state of dryness, that is, no way to quench the sensation of thirst through the possession of a host body.

And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. (Matt. 8:32)

Hmmm. They seem to have maybe been overcome with a desire to have that thirst quenched, that dryness relieved, or perhaps one last drink before they were thrust back out again some place. As if the spirits used the herd of swine to acquire one last drink of water.

My point being, that I have often thought of the body as the source of the cravings, but I appear to have been somewhat wrong about that. Just some incoherant thoughts...

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Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

The Girded Mind

Hi my answer to Fred.....

From my understanding of spirit soul and body the mind is in the spirit, but we are aware of it in our souls but spirit is more than just mind. Thus Paul can delight in the law with his mind but find no way of keeping it because of the state of his spirit ie dead in sin
So I wonder whether you think that our spirits are constitutionally 'weak' ie even Adam didn't really have a chance.

'However, I think this weakness or inability of our spirit to bring about the righteousness of the law or the will of God in our life has become like a powerful force working within us that we have no answer to without the Spirit of Christ, ( Romans 7:23 ).'

It is the idea of force that I have a problem with. I would prefer to say that I have a life and I will either live it out through a flesh mindset or through a renewed mindset (through the Spirit) but essentially I am not a divided being with different forces operating within me. As a Christian am not 'in the flesh' but I can still exhibit it depending on how much my mind has been renewed.

PS Im sure angels have bodies although they are not like ours - why else would they all be male?

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It appears that even before the incarnation God was 'male' but that doesn't mean that he 'has' a body. He has a 'form' but not a body and I think angels are probably the same.

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His/Yours
Ron B

God deals with hand-crafted masterpieces not mass-produced replicas.

Biblebase Second Thoughts Blog

I think God's maleness incorporated femaleness aswell whereas I don't think that is so of angels who are all clearly recognised as male.

If God is male in the same way that we are then where did femaleness come from?

What happened here?

'the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose' Gen 6:2

This angel had a body that was convincing enough for John.

'And when I heard and saw, I fell down before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Rev 22:8

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That an angel uses a body or manifest himself in a body is not the same as having a body. The theophanies are the instances in which Christ appeared in a corporeal form before the event of the incarnation.

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His/Yours
Ron B

God deals with hand-crafted masterpieces not mass-produced replicas.

Biblebase Second Thoughts Blog

Hi Ron,

In man….body soul and spirit? we were discussing Romans 6:6, but you have continued on that same topic over here on this thread, ( see 2009/6/9 ). My last response on the subject was on 2009/6/8 over on the man….body, soul and spirit? thread. I was n’t quite sure if you had overlooked this post or whether you thought the subject belonged more within the context of ‘ the flesh ‘. At any rate, I greatly enjoyed studying some of the points made, even though we differ in a few things. If on analysis I add more comments, would you prefer to continue on this thread?

Thanks,
Fred

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I have concluded that my attempt at 'order' might inhibit the discussion so I am content to live with the 'muddle'.

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His/Yours
Ron B

God deals with hand-crafted masterpieces not mass-produced replicas.

Biblebase Second Thoughts Blog

I agree that a 'spiritual' body may have different characteristcs but I still reckon that angels have bodies....what about the Gen 6 reference? What do you make of that?

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Did n't you use to work for a bank at one time? The books had to be balanced and the financial statements had to be in order. Once meticulous always meticulous.......or you could say, the accountant is still in there!