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Posted on: 2014/7/2 9:56
Needs to get out a bit more!
Joined: 2005/8/31
From: Dresden, Germany
Posts: 1174
So how much does it cost to be a disciple?
I made this comment on facebook regarding this blog entry, "Interesting that you think it means 'disciple the nations'." There hasn't been a response, so I will post my comment here and add some background.

The reason I raised this is that over the last few years an idea has developed that we are to 'disciple nations'. That is, we don't so much worry about discipling individuals, but focus on changing the culture of society so that it accepts the standard that God wants. In particular there are seven areas that Christians should be focusing on to gain influence in the affairs of this world so that they can 'disciple nations'. You will find the full details here: 7 Mountains of Influence in Culture. So for instance, you will find that there is a 'Marriage of the Arts discipleship training course' offered by YWAM, because the 'Arts and Entertainment' is one cultural mountain we want to influence.

The influence of this idea is quite widespread, so you will find the teaching offered at the Marketplace Bible Institute where Les is a lecturer: Reclaiming the Seven Mountains - Os Hillman

Personally, I have to date rejected this idea completely as I think it diverts us from our goal of making individuals disciples of Jesus Christ. That is one reason I prefer the more modern translation of this verse which imply that disciples are taken from nations: Mat 28:19a Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. This seems to me to fit better with Jesus' statement, Joh 18:36a My kingdom is not of this world.

It also adds weight to your recent observations from 1984, Either remove the words altogether or, as an alternative, continue to use the word but redefine them. Discipleship has changed from making followers of Jesus Christ to those that have established themselves in positions of influence in these 7 Cultural Mountains.

I think this idea also leads to Dominion Theology.

So do we 'disciple the nations' or the individuals ?

Kind regards

Posted on: 2014/7/2 19:57
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2009/5/8
From: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 359
Re: So how much does it cost to be a disciple?
Hi Mike, there is a lot of this kind of teaching in these parts as well, and like yourself, I utterly reject it. This is trying to change the world from the outside in instead of from the inside out.

For one thing, what we usually mean by a "nation" isn't what the Bible means by "nations." We usually mean a state of some kind, but the Biblical usage of the word (ethnos) is more along the line of "peoples." In fact it is often translated "Gentiles" in the KJV.

So, I think it might better be translated, "Go therefore and disciple all the peoples, baptizing them..."

That's another thing that's entirely out of wack with this new teaching. How do you baptize a nation?

Ron B
Posted on: 2014/7/2 20:08
Needs to get out a bit more!
Joined: 2005/1/20
From: Reading, UK
Posts: 3861
Re: So how much does it cost to be a disciple?
To become a disciple is not to adopt a standard or a teaching but to personally bow the knee to Jesus Christ. How would a nation do that?


Posted on: 2014/7/3 5:19
Needs to get out a bit more!
Joined: 2005/2/15
From: Independence, MO
Posts: 1910
Re: So how much does it cost to be a disciple?
How would a nation do that?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

I don't suspect there will be universal bowing the knee until this day arrives. It has to be one by one as individuals.

Blessings, Robert Wurtz II

The Girded Mind

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GWN)

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